Reloj Fabricado para el III Reich (DRGM): Deutsches Reich Gebrauchsmuster
- Iniciador del tema nicolau
- Fecha de inicio
La interpretación dada a las siglas DRGM es absolutamente incorrecta. Esta sigla no está directamente relacionada con el período conocido como "III REICH". Sí se relaciona con el Reich, que era la forma en la que se organizaba políticamente un territorio bastante parecido(que no igual)a lo que hoy conocemos por República Federal Alemana. Esta inscripción, que aparece en objetos de toda índole(no sólamente militares), se ve al menos desde la segunda mitad del siglo XIX y suele ir seguida de un número que indica la patente con la que dicho objeto fue registrado.
En el caso específico del reloj analizado, la inclusión de la sigla(que seguramente por razones de espacio físico no es acompañada de un número)señalaría que el modelo de caja de ese reloj está registrado en el Registro de Patentes del Reich. También es casi seguro que este reloj en particular, sí pertenezca al período del III Reich, pero esto dista mucho de su condición de pieza militar. Relojes de esta marca, Festa, y también del modelo "Tresor"(que en alemán significa "caja fuerte o cámara acorazada")pueden verse en cantidades y a precios casi simbólicos en cualquier mercadillo de Alemania, Austria, República Checa o Hungría.
El resto.......quizá sea más leyenda urbana que estricta realidad.
Vielen Dank und Auf Wiedersehen.............
Post datum: DRGM en ingles German Reich Registered Design o lo que en español significaría diseño registrado en Alemania......
En el caso específico del reloj analizado, la inclusión de la sigla(que seguramente por razones de espacio físico no es acompañada de un número)señalaría que el modelo de caja de ese reloj está registrado en el Registro de Patentes del Reich. También es casi seguro que este reloj en particular, sí pertenezca al período del III Reich, pero esto dista mucho de su condición de pieza militar. Relojes de esta marca, Festa, y también del modelo "Tresor"(que en alemán significa "caja fuerte o cámara acorazada")pueden verse en cantidades y a precios casi simbólicos en cualquier mercadillo de Alemania, Austria, República Checa o Hungría.
El resto.......quizá sea más leyenda urbana que estricta realidad.
Vielen Dank und Auf Wiedersehen.............
Post datum: DRGM en ingles German Reich Registered Design o lo que en español significaría diseño registrado en Alemania......
Última edición:
nicolau
New member
Buenas tardes. Gracias por la información. Es evidente que el reloj no es militar. En momento alguno se ha aseverado.
En lo que concierne a las iniciales, seguro que tienes razón, pero en todas las tiendas de militaria, asimismo, hacen la siguiente interpretación:
DH: Dienstuhr Heer D: Dienstuhr Luftwaffe DRGM: Deutsches Reich Gebrauchsmuster: "Modelo para uso general del Reich alemán"
RLM: Reichsluftfahrtministerium KM: Kriegsmarine DU: Dienstuhr (Verwaltung)
No tengo ni idea de alemán.
Por otro lado está la mención a la familia Krupp, por lo que podríamos llegar a la conclusión que el acero fue fundido por esta empresa, estrechamente ligada al III Reich, si bien es cierto que la saga arranca ya de varios generaciones anteriores, el reloj -como mucho- sería coetáneo a la II Guerra Mundial y no anterior.
En cuanto al precio, nunca me he referido a él, ni pienso hacerlo. Francisco sacó una página de eBay en que se sacaba un modelo muy similar por 199,00.-Dólares USA, en el que se veían las mismas siglas sin numeración. Sí puedo aseverar que tanto el armis como la caja son de una calidad muy, muy aceptable y que la maquinaria que monta, asimismo, lo es. El Ranfft, al referirse a la marca Alpina y más concretamente a los Tresor, menciona lo siguiente:
"The name Alpina was restricted to watches of higher to highest grade, while moderate to medium qualities came with the A surrounded by circle and triangle.
Further, brands like Festa, Siegerin, Terval were used for special types of watches or special markets, e.g. Tresor for very rugged watches." Ratificando lo que indicas en cuanto a interpretar Tresor con "Robusto" "Acorazado" y Festa para ediciones más especiales.
Finalizo indicando que las menciones a que el reloj se fabricó durante el III Reich, son reiteradas y que no las había tomado en consideración ab initio. Se trataría simplemente de un reloj -ALPINA- del que se hicieron algunas variantes fabricado durante dicho período y nada más, pero lo llamativo es la inscripción que lleva. Nunca se ha pretendido ir más allá, solo mostrar una curiosidad.
Muestro otro Tresor, que no lleva la inscripción de Festa y sí el símbolo de Alpina:
Saludos cordiales y muchas gracias.
En lo que concierne a las iniciales, seguro que tienes razón, pero en todas las tiendas de militaria, asimismo, hacen la siguiente interpretación:
DH: Dienstuhr Heer D: Dienstuhr Luftwaffe DRGM: Deutsches Reich Gebrauchsmuster: "Modelo para uso general del Reich alemán"
RLM: Reichsluftfahrtministerium KM: Kriegsmarine DU: Dienstuhr (Verwaltung)
No tengo ni idea de alemán.
Por otro lado está la mención a la familia Krupp, por lo que podríamos llegar a la conclusión que el acero fue fundido por esta empresa, estrechamente ligada al III Reich, si bien es cierto que la saga arranca ya de varios generaciones anteriores, el reloj -como mucho- sería coetáneo a la II Guerra Mundial y no anterior.
En cuanto al precio, nunca me he referido a él, ni pienso hacerlo. Francisco sacó una página de eBay en que se sacaba un modelo muy similar por 199,00.-Dólares USA, en el que se veían las mismas siglas sin numeración. Sí puedo aseverar que tanto el armis como la caja son de una calidad muy, muy aceptable y que la maquinaria que monta, asimismo, lo es. El Ranfft, al referirse a la marca Alpina y más concretamente a los Tresor, menciona lo siguiente:
"The name Alpina was restricted to watches of higher to highest grade, while moderate to medium qualities came with the A surrounded by circle and triangle.
Further, brands like Festa, Siegerin, Terval were used for special types of watches or special markets, e.g. Tresor for very rugged watches." Ratificando lo que indicas en cuanto a interpretar Tresor con "Robusto" "Acorazado" y Festa para ediciones más especiales.
Finalizo indicando que las menciones a que el reloj se fabricó durante el III Reich, son reiteradas y que no las había tomado en consideración ab initio. Se trataría simplemente de un reloj -ALPINA- del que se hicieron algunas variantes fabricado durante dicho período y nada más, pero lo llamativo es la inscripción que lleva. Nunca se ha pretendido ir más allá, solo mostrar una curiosidad.
Muestro otro Tresor, que no lleva la inscripción de Festa y sí el símbolo de Alpina:
Saludos cordiales y muchas gracias.
Francisco L.
New member
Quizas este enlace aclare algo sobre los relojes militares del III Reich.
http://www.spainswords.com/IIIreich_english.html
Salve.
http://www.spainswords.com/IIIreich_english.html
Salve.
nicolau
New member
Sigo insistiendo en que jamás se ha dicho que fuera un reloj militar, sino un reloj fabricado por/para el III Reich.
En cualquier supuesto, en el otro hilo que facilité, puede hallarse más información, ya que el mostrado solo cotiene -esencialmente- relojes de bolsillo. En el que vuelvo a insertar, constan las iniciales de los distintos cuerpos del ejército y la dichosa DRGM.
http://reviews.ebay.com/WWII-German-...00000004657856
que son las que anteriormente he transcrito.
Saludos y buen fín de semana.
En cualquier supuesto, en el otro hilo que facilité, puede hallarse más información, ya que el mostrado solo cotiene -esencialmente- relojes de bolsillo. En el que vuelvo a insertar, constan las iniciales de los distintos cuerpos del ejército y la dichosa DRGM.
http://reviews.ebay.com/WWII-German-...00000004657856
que son las que anteriormente he transcrito.
Saludos y buen fín de semana.
nicolau
New member
Hilo correcto, no sé porque se ha cambiado el anterior:
http://reviews.ebay.com/WWII-German-military-issue-service-watches_W0QQugidZ10000000004657856
Para mayor seguridad, aunque no salen las ilustraciones:
Wehrmacht issued WWII wrist watches were manufactured by many Swiss and German watch makers contracted by the German government. They are manually wound and most often have screw-on stainless steel case backs, are/were shock/water resistant and had a nickel plated brass (sometimes steel) watch case. The dial face was black with luminous (radium, long faded) numbers and hands with a sub seconds dial. Variations will be encountered including snap-on case backs for the German made watches. The watch case diameter will range about 34mm.
A common interpretation of the 'D' code is that it stands for Dienstuhr "Service Watch" taken together 'DH would mean Service Watch Army (Heer). Soldier's pay book records indicate that the 'D code referred to the service branch that contracted for the watches. There is evidence that 'DH coded watches were also issued to Luftwaffe personel and possibly other service organizations.
DH: Dienstuhr Heer D: Dienstuhr Luftwaffe DRGM: Deutsches Reich Gebrauchsmuster
RLM: Reichsluftfahrtministerium KM: Kriegsmarine DU: Dienstuhr (Verwaltung)
'DH code, stainless steel & water proof markings. REVUE Sport and PHENIX (Swiss) Wehrmacht issue watches. 1930's (Swiss) Luftwaffe aviator.
Wehrmacht issued GERMAN made watches did NOT have these 'D'codes, some German made watches for the Navy (KM, M or anchor) and Luftwaffe 'FI' (Flight) or 'RLM' (Reich Air Ministry) were coded. Imported contract watches were required to have these markings in order to facilitate contract documentation (the Wehrmacht excelled at record keeping). It is commonly felt that the GERMAN watch makers were not required to use D codes since they were closely regulated and inspected by the German Government as a matter of course.
During the 30's (German re-arming) many watches were procured adhoc without the set pattern or DH codes that developed later; This is especially true of the early Luftwaffe "aviator" watches where different patterns were purchased during the 20's and 30's. These "old timers" were issued by the Luftwaffe to their pilots throughout WWII. At the beginning of the mission the watches would be issued to the flight personnel and then be RETURNED to the unit upon the completion of the mission. The issuing unit was responsible for maintaining and ajusting these valuable timepieces, these watches were never intended for "off mission" personal use.
Towards the end of the war (and the decline of the Wehrmacht) specifications were often eased or ignored in order to meet the immediate needs of the Wehrmacht. Without a doubt, uncounted tens of thousands of timepieces that served the Wehrmacht durning WWII cannot be documented due to their being obtained outside the more "formal" channels.
(left)Visit to the salvage dump and the office for the disposition of salvage in Lublin. The following were confiscated; 60,000 watches and 800,000 wrist watches. The wrist watches will be repaired if necessary and will be handed out to front-line troops.
(right) Stowa watch contracted by the Waffen-SS (W-SS). The absence of the 'DH code is proper for this German made watch.
Collectors/buyers are often unaware of which watch companies were Swiss and which were German. Markings WILL vary depending on the contract, the country of origin, the period of the war in which the watch was obtained, and the department/branch placing the order/contract. German made watches are much less common due to Germany's production limits and the need for German watch companies to manufacture gauges and fuzes to equip the Wehrmacht war machine (ships, aircraft, vehicles, artillery shells etc). This same need was faced by America during WWII and accounts for the mass introduction of Swiss made watches into the United States to meet consumer demands. This "temporary" solution contributed to the decline of the American watch industry; by the time WWII had ended the public had learned to appreciate the Swiss made watch.
Wehrmacht issued watches had the serial number recorded into the service member's pay book and the watches were expected to be returned to the service upon discharge. Period pictures show Wehrmacht personel wearing issue and non-issue watches. During the first half of the 20th century a wristwatch was a luxury item that not everyone could afford and military watches were NOT fashion items but the tools of the trade. As a general rule, the lower enlisted ranks could NOT afford a watch and their duties rarely required that they be issued one. Contracted watches seldom were able to meet the demand of the German War machine therefore watches along with other war booty (ammunition, weapons, vehicles, etc.) were often salvaged and re-issued.
1930's (Swiss) Luftwaffe Aviator watch, Kriegsmarine (Swiss) watch and WWII aviator watch pattern (a Soviet copy).
By no means do these Wehrmacht contract watches represent the majority of the watches that were issued to the armed forces of Germany. That "trophy" watch brought home by a WWII veteran might indeed have been "liberated" from some battlefield but conclusive documentation (for the collector) is often lacking.
The Heer, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine (Army, Air Force and Navy) and other German organizations each determined their own contract specifications for their watches. A common pre-WWII practice was to convert pocket watches to wrist watches by adding wire lugs (for the wrist strap) to the watch case. Due to their availability and the accuracy of the movements, it is common to find Wehrmacht wrist watches that are converted pocket watches these most often are very BIG watches, often over two inches in diameter!
The Swiss made imported watches tend to be the most common and the easiest Wehrmacht issued watches to verify IF the 'D' code and serial numbers are intact. They are of premium quality and commonly have a Swiss AS1130 movement (although other movements were used), this is an excellent movement that was used for commercial watches both before, during, and after WWII. These watches had fixed lug pins, not the spring pins common to modern day watches. A factor to consider when buying any antique watch is "are parts available for repairing the watch movement?"
A partial list of the various Swiss & German contractors are;
Arsa, Büren, BWC, Choisi, Civitas, Edo, Freco, Gala, Glycine, Grana, Helbro, Helios, Helma, Helvetia, Longines, Mimo, Minerva, Moeris, Moser, Mulco, Nisus, Phenix, Record, Recta, Revue, Stabila, Titus, Zenith, General Watch&Co, Grana, Hado, Förster Pforzheim, Gustonia, Flora, Acacia, Bulla, Era, Onda, Onsa, Alpina, Siegerin, Pronto, Monitor, Stowa, Tritona, Wagner, Aeschbach, Para, Berg, Nila, Omega, Natalia, Wempe, Geering, Bidlingmaier, Speck, Vogele, Wiemer, Tutima, Hanhart, Zentra, Selza, Aristo, Lemania, Titus, Breitling, IWC, Roamer, Rellum
Commercial versions of the Wehrmacht contract watches were produced and sold concurrently to meet consumer demands around the World making it nearly impossible to determine if an uncoded watch was a private purchase worn by a Wehrmacht service member, a civilian or were the markings later removed. Some times a soldier would remove any markings from the case back in order to conceal their military service (instant CIVILIAN watch) thus destroying any easy verification for the collector. At the end of the war many unissued watches in the government's possession had any offensive markings removed from the case backs in order to facilitate their post WWII issue.
Copies of these Wehrmacht watches were made during and after WWII, some for commercial reasons and some for military issue. Often times the copies are so close that only an examination of the watch movement indicates the country of origin and the date of manufacture. Several German watch companies reorganized and continued to manufacture their watches after the war, especially those companies located in East Germany. The Soviets were very fond of the German aviator watches and produced excellent copies during and after the war and issued them to their own air forces. If you like the style of a German aviator wrist watch but balk at the price, one of these Soviet issued copies might be an excellent choice for your consideration.
Which "type" of Wehrmacht watch do I enjoy the most you might ask? Due to their accuracy and history I enjoy the large wrist watches made from converted pocket watches. Most tend to be pre-WWII (20's and 30's) and are of excellent workmanship. Mine is accurate to within a minute during daily wear but be prepared, being an old movement (design) it needs to be wound every 10 hours! Not much power reserve compared to a modern watch but I can appreciate why the Wehrmacht choose to use these large watches when smaller calibers/movements were available.
Vuelvo a repetir que en este caso se trata de relojes militares y no simplemente de relojes fabricados durante el III Reich
http://reviews.ebay.com/WWII-German-military-issue-service-watches_W0QQugidZ10000000004657856
Para mayor seguridad, aunque no salen las ilustraciones:
Wehrmacht issued WWII wrist watches were manufactured by many Swiss and German watch makers contracted by the German government. They are manually wound and most often have screw-on stainless steel case backs, are/were shock/water resistant and had a nickel plated brass (sometimes steel) watch case. The dial face was black with luminous (radium, long faded) numbers and hands with a sub seconds dial. Variations will be encountered including snap-on case backs for the German made watches. The watch case diameter will range about 34mm.
A common interpretation of the 'D' code is that it stands for Dienstuhr "Service Watch" taken together 'DH would mean Service Watch Army (Heer). Soldier's pay book records indicate that the 'D code referred to the service branch that contracted for the watches. There is evidence that 'DH coded watches were also issued to Luftwaffe personel and possibly other service organizations.
DH: Dienstuhr Heer D: Dienstuhr Luftwaffe DRGM: Deutsches Reich Gebrauchsmuster
RLM: Reichsluftfahrtministerium KM: Kriegsmarine DU: Dienstuhr (Verwaltung)
'DH code, stainless steel & water proof markings. REVUE Sport and PHENIX (Swiss) Wehrmacht issue watches. 1930's (Swiss) Luftwaffe aviator.
Wehrmacht issued GERMAN made watches did NOT have these 'D'codes, some German made watches for the Navy (KM, M or anchor) and Luftwaffe 'FI' (Flight) or 'RLM' (Reich Air Ministry) were coded. Imported contract watches were required to have these markings in order to facilitate contract documentation (the Wehrmacht excelled at record keeping). It is commonly felt that the GERMAN watch makers were not required to use D codes since they were closely regulated and inspected by the German Government as a matter of course.
During the 30's (German re-arming) many watches were procured adhoc without the set pattern or DH codes that developed later; This is especially true of the early Luftwaffe "aviator" watches where different patterns were purchased during the 20's and 30's. These "old timers" were issued by the Luftwaffe to their pilots throughout WWII. At the beginning of the mission the watches would be issued to the flight personnel and then be RETURNED to the unit upon the completion of the mission. The issuing unit was responsible for maintaining and ajusting these valuable timepieces, these watches were never intended for "off mission" personal use.
Towards the end of the war (and the decline of the Wehrmacht) specifications were often eased or ignored in order to meet the immediate needs of the Wehrmacht. Without a doubt, uncounted tens of thousands of timepieces that served the Wehrmacht durning WWII cannot be documented due to their being obtained outside the more "formal" channels.
(left)Visit to the salvage dump and the office for the disposition of salvage in Lublin. The following were confiscated; 60,000 watches and 800,000 wrist watches. The wrist watches will be repaired if necessary and will be handed out to front-line troops.
(right) Stowa watch contracted by the Waffen-SS (W-SS). The absence of the 'DH code is proper for this German made watch.
Collectors/buyers are often unaware of which watch companies were Swiss and which were German. Markings WILL vary depending on the contract, the country of origin, the period of the war in which the watch was obtained, and the department/branch placing the order/contract. German made watches are much less common due to Germany's production limits and the need for German watch companies to manufacture gauges and fuzes to equip the Wehrmacht war machine (ships, aircraft, vehicles, artillery shells etc). This same need was faced by America during WWII and accounts for the mass introduction of Swiss made watches into the United States to meet consumer demands. This "temporary" solution contributed to the decline of the American watch industry; by the time WWII had ended the public had learned to appreciate the Swiss made watch.
Wehrmacht issued watches had the serial number recorded into the service member's pay book and the watches were expected to be returned to the service upon discharge. Period pictures show Wehrmacht personel wearing issue and non-issue watches. During the first half of the 20th century a wristwatch was a luxury item that not everyone could afford and military watches were NOT fashion items but the tools of the trade. As a general rule, the lower enlisted ranks could NOT afford a watch and their duties rarely required that they be issued one. Contracted watches seldom were able to meet the demand of the German War machine therefore watches along with other war booty (ammunition, weapons, vehicles, etc.) were often salvaged and re-issued.
1930's (Swiss) Luftwaffe Aviator watch, Kriegsmarine (Swiss) watch and WWII aviator watch pattern (a Soviet copy).
By no means do these Wehrmacht contract watches represent the majority of the watches that were issued to the armed forces of Germany. That "trophy" watch brought home by a WWII veteran might indeed have been "liberated" from some battlefield but conclusive documentation (for the collector) is often lacking.
The Heer, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine (Army, Air Force and Navy) and other German organizations each determined their own contract specifications for their watches. A common pre-WWII practice was to convert pocket watches to wrist watches by adding wire lugs (for the wrist strap) to the watch case. Due to their availability and the accuracy of the movements, it is common to find Wehrmacht wrist watches that are converted pocket watches these most often are very BIG watches, often over two inches in diameter!
The Swiss made imported watches tend to be the most common and the easiest Wehrmacht issued watches to verify IF the 'D' code and serial numbers are intact. They are of premium quality and commonly have a Swiss AS1130 movement (although other movements were used), this is an excellent movement that was used for commercial watches both before, during, and after WWII. These watches had fixed lug pins, not the spring pins common to modern day watches. A factor to consider when buying any antique watch is "are parts available for repairing the watch movement?"
A partial list of the various Swiss & German contractors are;
Arsa, Büren, BWC, Choisi, Civitas, Edo, Freco, Gala, Glycine, Grana, Helbro, Helios, Helma, Helvetia, Longines, Mimo, Minerva, Moeris, Moser, Mulco, Nisus, Phenix, Record, Recta, Revue, Stabila, Titus, Zenith, General Watch&Co, Grana, Hado, Förster Pforzheim, Gustonia, Flora, Acacia, Bulla, Era, Onda, Onsa, Alpina, Siegerin, Pronto, Monitor, Stowa, Tritona, Wagner, Aeschbach, Para, Berg, Nila, Omega, Natalia, Wempe, Geering, Bidlingmaier, Speck, Vogele, Wiemer, Tutima, Hanhart, Zentra, Selza, Aristo, Lemania, Titus, Breitling, IWC, Roamer, Rellum
Commercial versions of the Wehrmacht contract watches were produced and sold concurrently to meet consumer demands around the World making it nearly impossible to determine if an uncoded watch was a private purchase worn by a Wehrmacht service member, a civilian or were the markings later removed. Some times a soldier would remove any markings from the case back in order to conceal their military service (instant CIVILIAN watch) thus destroying any easy verification for the collector. At the end of the war many unissued watches in the government's possession had any offensive markings removed from the case backs in order to facilitate their post WWII issue.
Copies of these Wehrmacht watches were made during and after WWII, some for commercial reasons and some for military issue. Often times the copies are so close that only an examination of the watch movement indicates the country of origin and the date of manufacture. Several German watch companies reorganized and continued to manufacture their watches after the war, especially those companies located in East Germany. The Soviets were very fond of the German aviator watches and produced excellent copies during and after the war and issued them to their own air forces. If you like the style of a German aviator wrist watch but balk at the price, one of these Soviet issued copies might be an excellent choice for your consideration.
Which "type" of Wehrmacht watch do I enjoy the most you might ask? Due to their accuracy and history I enjoy the large wrist watches made from converted pocket watches. Most tend to be pre-WWII (20's and 30's) and are of excellent workmanship. Mine is accurate to within a minute during daily wear but be prepared, being an old movement (design) it needs to be wound every 10 hours! Not much power reserve compared to a modern watch but I can appreciate why the Wehrmacht choose to use these large watches when smaller calibers/movements were available.
Vuelvo a repetir que en este caso se trata de relojes militares y no simplemente de relojes fabricados durante el III Reich
